NHL investigating Hawks
Sources have told TSN Canada that the NHL and the NHL Players Association are investigating the Blackhawks over whether general manager Dale Tallon offered his restricted free agents qualifying offers properly.
According to TSN, the Hawks tendered qualifying offers to Kris Versteeg, Cam Barker, Ben Eager, Colin Fraser, Aaron Johnson and Troy Brouwer, and the investigation underway is to determine whether the qualifying offers were filed correctly.
If not, there is the remote possibility the qualifying offers could be ruled
invalid and the players could be deemed unrestricted free agents.
One source said the players involved didn't receive the necessary notification of the offers.
The NHL is determining whether the situation was remedied in time.
Tallon told TSN the qualifying offers were mailed to the players in time on June 29, but because of the July 1 Canadian holiday, some of the players didn't receive them in time.
Most teams do not mail the offers, instead using overnight delivery via courier or a fax to the agents.
Tallon said fax copies of the offers were sent to the league, so he doesn't expect a problem.
T5N is reporting that the players association has filed a greivance. The NHL can agree or disagree. If they disagree it goes to arbitration. Can any of you confirm that the Hawks have already signed Eager,Fraser,Brouwer and Crawford as I am hearing that they have signed.
It is being suggested elsewhere that Brouwer, Eager, and and Fraser have signed-on again with the 'hawks. If so, this leaves, Versteeg, Barker, and Johnson still to sign. Is it just coincidence that the two players Versteeg and Barker are the most oft-rumored duo to be leaving town in a deal. Were they not also two of those who were mentioned as not having received their offers on time? IMO, the NHLPA is advising them not to sign until the matter is cleared up.
CanadianHawksFan, as a fellow Canuck, I disagree re: the possible signing to offer sheets by other teams of Versteeg and Barker. There are plenty of teams who may be ready to pounce with offer sheets, once this soap-opera is cleared up. It doesn't happen often but it does happen…
and as a yet another canadian hawks fan (although that has nothing to do with anything) i have studied the RFA lists and team needs vs salary cap and i can tell you reasonably that Barker/Versteeg are worth 2nd round picks.
They are young players that are 23 and not 30 that are already developed to play in the NHL. They are not the complete package but the potential and relatively cheap contract over 5 years will outweigh the value of a 2nd round pick. Plus a 2.5 -3 mill offer likely wont be matched for both players.
Plus we will see who is a core player when this is said and done!
So how do you view the roles of Fraser and Madden? Fraser the same (4th line center) and Madden replaces Pahlsson as third line center. So we are simply replacing Havlat with Hossa. We are a better team, a team that can win as much in an improved league? We won't be taking anyone by surprise, and we can't count on teams passsing through whom are dead tired or plain sick (flu). Would like to assume Hjalmaarsson develops into third more relied upon defender -- he was, in fact, as the regular season ended. But until we get that nasty defenseman (to replace Walker), we aren't significantly better than last year. You cannot count on Bolland and Bufuglien to produce more. You also cannot say for certain that Kane and Toewes will become even better, more productive players. There aren't any signs those players showed that makes you certain (stress certain) they will be more successful, save maybe Bufuglien at times will not be the stiff he often was in the regular season. Right now we have to either sign or replace Versteeg and Barker with equal talent. There isn't any way you can feel confidant that next year is going to be as good a season...it is a real challenge to finish with that many points and it is even a greater response if we march up well and are able to advance as far into the playoffs.
Posters say long term this team really needs that nasty defenseman. Ideally we also benefit from another point producing center.
The goaltending. I can't believe Huet actually gets dealt. The situation in goal is more or less a wait and see proposition. Huet could play better and the kids could emerge. But Huet doesn't inspire a lot of confidance with me, at least not leading us far in the playoffs. We don't know yet if Crawford returns, and if Niemi is ready for prime time. The only thing we know is that the Blackhawks will keep us wondering and anxious a while longer while both baseball teams probably come up short.
I am most interested to see if Quenneville can provide that tough "love" approach to Kane and (if necessary) Bufuglien. How do you think that pans out? Live and learn?
Versteeg will make it 16 at some point...sooooo what are we trading for Dale??
for Barker/Versteeg. credit: Darren Dreger TSN
now you know why the others were signed!!
This will blow over and I doubt anyone significant will lose a job over it. The offers were made and it's not like the NJ incident. The league doesn't want to destroy what has been built in Chicago and can't afford for this franchise to go back to the dark ages. The NHLPA might complain, but it won't amount to anything.
As for the Hawks' RFAs, don't expect any offer sheets. While these guys are good young talent, they aren't anything the other teams will take the risk on. Every year, young talent is available for offer sheets, and it's rare that anything ever happens. Plus you have the uncertainty around the future of the salary cap and the fact that these guys haven't really established themselves as top players. Maybe if Versteeg or Barker had put together 2-3 decent years or have shown more complete games. Barker is still improving his defensive play and Versteeg needs to add more to his game. He had a good start last year, playing with good players and going under the radar, but once players realized what he was about, his production and impact dropped significantly. It will be interesting to see if he can rise above it and maybe become a legit top 6 forward.
We Hawks fans put a little extra value on these players, but they don't have that value in the scope of the entire NHL. This happens with every team, their young players and especially their fans. If the RFAs listed want a deal thats more than 1-2 years, they will be in a Hawks uniform. I think even the Oilers learned their lesson with offer sheets and made the huge mistake of taking Penner. The guy hasn't developed into the player they hoped, he is eating salary and cost them draft picks. He has been shopped around the league so much and the only team that would take him in a trade is Ottawa because they needed to move Danny.
This was the Mike Smith era ....at least with Mike "EuroTrash" Smith wanting Karpotsev and dealt a future captain away...you forget that Calder was reacquired later that year at the trade deadline...
If an arbitrated salary doesnt make sense to a club than they are almost always traded to a club that will accept it. This trait is not tied to the hawks exclusively...
and than there is Bobby Hull, Ed Belfour Steve Larmer and JR etc yes we have been very cheap more than our share, I heard a rumor back in the day that Thomas Gradin wanted a huge signing bonus (huge in the hawks eyes) and we ended up with Steve Ludzik..who is a very good analyst on "The Score"
Cheapness isnt a sense-Jerry Seinfeld
With Hudler going the arbitration route and detroit`s 5 mill cap room left , i think barring injuries and trades the wings are looking at some uncertainties up front when you consider how deep we are (more so after the Hossa/Kropecky signings).
The wings are still incredibly strong Zetter, Datsyuk, Franzen, Cleary, Fillpulla, Hudler, Draper, Holstrom, McCarty, helm and maltby and once Lidstrom (39) retires they cease to become a special team in my eyes.
Next year Lidstrom is UFA as well as a few young defenceman Lilja, Ledba plus Maltby and Holmstrom with a 38 million cap start. Its nice to see they will be pinching pennies as well.
Does anyone find it interesting that Walsh's player, Aaron Johnson (A BIG favorite on this site to play INSTEAD of the presently wealthy Matt Walker) is the ONLY BLACKHAWK RFA to apply to a have a hearing in front of an arbitration judge to have him set his market value?
Is the picture clear to everyone yet?
Poor aaron will now go the way of Kyle Calder, Bryan McCabe, and anybody else who dared take the hawk to arbitration for MORE money!!!!
Aaron Johnson has signed.
I think it is obvious that Alan Walsh that has stirred this up. I haven't heard a word from the other players who would benefit more from this, ie Barker, Versteeg, and even Eager. If it wasn't for Walsh going stupid over Havlat, I could understand his point in this case. Johnson played really well for the Hawks and deserved to play a lot more then he did. He wants his client to go to a better situation. Johnson might be a nice fit next to Campbell next year. Hopefully Aaron realizes he is in a nice situation with the Hawks and takes an active role in what is happening.
It depends on what Johnson is asking for in his arb case. If he isn't asking for the moon he could win and come back. I would hope the Hawks are very well prepared for it.
Either way this situation is the fault of the Hawks. I am not saying that anyone should be fired over it (look at Lou in NJ, things can happen) but I am just disappointed that it did happen. Didn't need to wait till the last day and should have used FedEx, UPS, private courier or something other then standard ground mail. I don't care if that is what you have used in the past. There are a lot of things that happened in the past that you don't use anymore. It is called technology and improvements, use it.
i dont think were free and clear yet though. In situations like this the blame can be pointed in so many directions and NHLPA will stand up barrel chested to a prove a point.
and is it curious no FA signings have been made in 3 days? just wondering..
That's why I am not going to sit here and assume the Hawks are in the clear. If they were, we would be hearing it from everywhere.
As far as Walsh goes, I don't know. Yeah, I could see him being bitter, but unless something unethical went down by the Hawks in negioations, why would an agent commit career suicide? Think about it. Unless the Hawks pulled an offer that Havlat was about to sign, why would he go through all this crap? Not only would the Hawks never do business with him, do you think other teams wouldn't notice and write him off as well?
I do understand sending Johnson to arbritration. I get that. Look, Johnson was far better the player that Walker was, yet was benched for most of the year because Q had a soft spot for Walker. So to get the Hawks to release Johnson into the market, what other tool does he have? Take the hawks to table, hope to get a raise based on some numbers, and pray that the Hawks dont' have the room to justify spending it on him, to sit him on the bench as an insurance policy. I get it. I would expect the same thing if I were a player. It's the business side to it.
Will Johnson get it? Probably not, but at least his agent pulled out all the stops.
different times dude, the grudge era has passed or hadn't you noticed?
I don't think it was deliberate. if you want to lose these guys for cap relief, you give them a low ball QO, hope someone signs them and get compensation.
That said, it is ridiculous to center all the blame on Tallon.
Could be some lower level functionary fell asleep at the wheel.
Could also be— very likely— there are way too many hands and eyes a thing like qualifying offers has to go through in the Hawk front office (both Bowmans, MacIsaac, McDonough, Rocky, Tallon . . .). That was the the "glitch." And if that's the case, and you want to blame someone, blame Rocky.
Hawks might end up with some sort of slap on the wrist. But i can't see anything more serious than that coming out of this.
I think you could be right. I was concerned about this as well. I not ready to assume it's Tallon's fault just yet.
by the time factor..now as a result less teams will have the opportunity that they did 01 July 09 to bid on our players...and i would be pissed if another team did it!!!
We benefited..but were not out of the woods yet. The NHLPA knows less teams means less dollars to their clients and i believe they will make the hawks pay. How could you get away with something like this in this day and age?
Unless we have been misled and dont know the entire facts..this is still an odd turn of events.
Every team in the league expected us to give all these players a qualifying offer. The benefit is IF the NHL would make all these guys UFAs. Then a team like Minnesota might regret giving Havlat 6 years instead of a younger player who might be more durable.
All said I don't think it was to our advantage at all we went through this. The only advantage would be making sure we still have the rights to all of them.
I surprised myself by wading into that discussion but no more.
We also need a Larmer/Savard and a dedicated courier service...
The NHLPA will now try to make an issue.
They will lose.
Maybe if these players WANTED to go, the stink would be more intense, but the Hawks are and the kids want to stay in town.
You gotta love all those sheep posters on TSN thumbs downing and pro hawk sentiment...LOL
I'm not one to hide behind the ethical bunker of "it's just business."
Thankfully, we all have the luxury of plausible deniability regarding what the Hawks promised to Havlat and his agent, but if this recent incident is an actual case of dirty pool, and if the Hawks front office is guilty of it, the team--our team--must take its medicine.
That said, I won't be surprised of nothing really comes of this RFA nonsense.
Worst case scenario seems to be an opportunity for Bowman the Younger to replace Tallon for the blunder.
If Steeger or Barker become UFAs, a loss in trade assets is a gain in cap room (possible, but unlikely any of the RFAs were going to see offer sheets).
After the smoke clears, the Hawks will still be a force in the West (my eyes are closed and my fingers are in my ears at the hint of the long vowel in "Huet," Cheese).
was is in charge of the arbitration issues
Too many cooks in the kitchen, analysis paralysis, someone didn't "sign off" in a timely manner, that's what happened.
They definitely need to streamline the front office
Someone`s head will role for this mistake, whether its clerical or management someone will take the fall. I still havent dismissed this as being a planned event, even if this never happened we dont have the cap room to acquire added salaries by trading our RFAs (maybe for expiring contracts maybe) but most would go anyway.
we cant dismiss it as "there is no way management make mistakes like this" it happens all the time and more so outside the sports world and we dont know whats in their heads and we will probably never know what caused this. We do know dale tried to dismiss it by quoting the Canadian holliday and that he mailed them out and even how the league recieved the offers..so he was covered...uh huh!
I love dale as our GM , i really do..but he is not innocent here and i do believe he belayed the contract offers so teams would be squeezed out of bidding for his FA`s...he tried to buy time bottom line but when they are deemed UFAs (plan B) he will still come out ahead in cap space.
everyone has a backup plan..just my opinion guys..i expect to be dragged through the streets amidst broken glass for saying this but nothing else makes sense to me but the "MONEY"
Not a lot of cheap physical defenceman that have 1 year left on their current contracts
Anahiem Sheldon Brookbank 1 year 550,000
Calgary Adam pardy 2 year 700,000
Colorado Ruslan Salei 1 year 3.2 mill
Nashville Dan Hamphuis 1 year 2.5 mill
NJD Jay Leach 1 year 550,000
Vancouver Willie Mitchell 1 year 3.5 mill
Of the group above i would like to see tallon acquire Dan Hamphuis...i watched him play for the Victoria/Prince George Cougars when i was working there. Its a huge stretch because he`s so talented but he is UFA next year and Nashville is losing money big time.
ps Nicknamed "Hammer" for his hip check prowess he isnt considered just physical more of a well balanced defenceman..but has defensive potential just the same!
ps Willie Mitchell would be ideal as well
hey tennis is on TV so im bored
Just because Barker gets a lot of crap here dont think he isnt valued elsewhere. Darren Dreger (TSN) speculates what i have been saying all along , that Barker could command upwards of 3 mill and is certainly worth handing over a 2nd round draft choice. Versteeg although not a scoring defenceman, is a skilled 2 way forward who would fit like a glove in the Stars/Devils rosters and all for the price of a 2nd rounder that the hawks cant match!
They would have a week to trade other assets (Sharp, Sopel, Huet (Ha), Buff etc) so they could match if they chose to do so.
The history is not on the hawks side here fellas as we all heard of the Devils saga ad nausea m . So(long breath)...is versteeg worth 3-3.5 mill a year at the expense of Sharp, Buff etc...these are the questions undoubtedly going through the hawks front office...how much do we value those "5" over what we have contractually!
This is gonna drag on
Do the teams that you mentioned have the cap space to sign these guys. I have to think that even in the nightmare scenario that they are declared UFA'S that some still will sign with the Hawks. The Hawks are close to being a cup contender and I think somes players would take less money for the chance to win one. The Hawks have gotten a little bit better through free agency and the Wings just got a little bit worse so the gap between the two teams is narrowing.
The Devils/Stars are both around 44 mill with most of their team signed (16,19 respectively)
A nice trade off for the devils, Madden for Versteeg, although both these teams are cautious when it comes to the cap, i mean a 10 year vet in madden is let go for 2.75? and they were correct in letting Gionta go. Imagine Parise and Versteeg killing penalties and they could use a forward or 2.
Dallas is clearly holding money back for next year Turco and a good majority of their active roster are U/RFAs but Versteeg might be too tempting if he is a UFA.
As far as Barker...young all around defenceman at 23 dont hit the market ..ever!!! expect a bidding war and dont believe the nit picking on here about him as most defenceman come into their own after 27.
and as far as Crawford goes and this really goes for all of them...We are about to find out how the league values our kids..Crawford could and should hurt the most, have we not been grooming him cautiously for this moment only to potentially lose him when it is critical that we find out what he brings to the table?
Here is part of the Josh Mora article
I was also informed by a separate source closer to the league that while clerical errors such as this are not common, they do happen more than occasionally. So clearly, because this looks worse to the general public than to those more familiar with league operations, someone is trying to embarrass Dale Tallon by letting this leak out. What are the possible scenarios and motivations for that to happen?
A) It could be an agent who was recently burned by the Blackhawks.
I find this scenario unlikely, because agents have to deal with teams all the time. So even if, say, Allan Walsh is upset with what happened in Marty Havlat's situation, he has other clients who may become Blackhawks in the future. If he embarrasses a front office he does so at his own peril.
B) It could be an agent of one of the affected RFA's.
I could buy into this. If one of the RFA's is looking for big money, and the Hawks have already told him that those contract requests are unreasonable, an agent might try to find a way to free up his client, or insinuate that his client wants to be free, which could force a trade.
C) It could be a representative of one of the Hawks' rivals.
One way to knock a team down is by creating the image that the 'Hawks aren't as stable or cutting edge an organization as they might seem. That could persuade potential free agents to sign elsewhere, or create dissension within the team. Pretty cynical. For the record, I know many of you will immediately jump to the Red Wings. Knowing what I know of that organization, I highly doubt the Wings would go this route. I think they are above that.
D) It could be someone within the organization who has his eyes on the GM job, or who wants someone different in the GM job.
All I can say here is that I hope not. But I think it's a plausible scenario.
He is quoting Josh Mora from Comcast sportsnet reporter! I dont like anonymous quotes either so i looked it up! (or go to thethirdmanin.com) sorry Tim S your still my fav!!
However as i stated from the RFA rules, the players must have their tenders by the end of the first week after the entry draft (new york time) 5pm 29 June 09 to be exact this year....or they are granted unrestricted status!!!
We shall see
I subsequently read the latest TSN story, not good . . . . Yes, the Blackhawks have suddenly become NHL darlings, but will they 'get away' with what appears to be a stupid mistake? If this goes to some sort of arbitration, you gotta think the Blackhawks' position doesn't look good.
Ok, maybe not so bad?
http://csnchicago.com/pages/hawktalk
NHLPA supposedly will file a grievance if league sides with the hawks sources say...comments on what happened to John madden/Brian Rafalski when the devils did the samething...
Our cap problems maybe getting better,,,but at the cost of losing 5 players!
Regardless of the outcome of this, one has to ask how this could happen? These are players or "assets" that are very valuable to the team. Even if the players are on the trade block or what ever else you could imagine, the Hawks aren't simply going to give them away for free (even Fraser). They were going to be tendered all along so why wait till the last minute? The salary cap means nothing right now because we can be over the cap without penalty. That is because you can't guarantee who is going to make the opening day roster. Why weren't the offers sent weeks ago? Also, I'm sure the offers are just for the minimum raise of 10% so we can retain their rights. There can always be a different contract negotiated. So this isn't a low-ball situation either. You are just guaranteeing that you retain the right to match the offer and get compensation. This is a mess that is stupid.
Other media outlets have reportedly talked to some of the players and they have "received their offers and are excited to be playing in Chicago again next year".
Looks like O'Connell will stay in LA since they traded Quincey and Pressing to Colorado for Ryan Smyth (salary dump).
You say, "Other media outlets have reportedly talked to some players." Three weasel words in one sentence - other, reportedly, and some. Please be more specific, at least about the "other media."
The following are RFA rules for tendering..note 25 june or first monday after entry draft!
Section 10.2 (ii):
In order to receive a Right of First Refusal or Draft Choice Compensation (at the Prior Club's option) with respect to a Restricted Free Agent, the Prior Club of a Restricted Free Agent must tender to the Player, no later than 5:00 p.m. New York time on the later of June 25 or the first Monday after the Entry Draft of the final year of the Player's SPC, a "Qualifying Offer", which shall be an offer of an SPC, for one League Year, which is subject to salary arbitration if such Player is otherwise eligible for salary arbitration in accordance with Section 12.1, on at least the following terms and conditions:
Section 10.2 (iv):
In the event a Prior Club fails to make a Qualifying Offer as set forth in this Section 10.2 and fails to elect salary arbitration pursuant to Section 12.3(a), the Player shall immediately become an Unrestricted Free Agent and shall be completely free to negotiate and sign an SPC [Standard Player Contract] with any Club, and any Club shall be completely free to negotiate and sign an SPC with any such Player, without penalty or restriction or being subject to any Right of First Refusal, Draft Choice Compensation, or any other compensation or equalization obligation of any kind.
I think I am pretty certain that Tallon was shrewd enough to not LOW BALL Versteeg.
If Tallon knew he was going to go on a spending spree, that any team interested in possibly signing Versteeg as a RFA, could look at the numbers and see what the CAP THE HAWKS HAD LEFT and what they needed to even fill the bottom of the roster with minimum salary Rockford players (like Swede Carlsson or Brennan), and offer Versteeg a FRONT LOADED offer that the Hawks could not possibly match.
THIS MAYBE WHY (even if there is number agreement between one or all of these guys) that the Hawks qualified and didn't "final-up" with the other RFAs, to keep a gap open to scare of potential RFA snipers.
Right now it is not difficult to imagine Versteeg being paid over the $3,013,433 amount that would make another team's compensation a 1st and 3rd rounder, IF the Hawks don't match.
I just don't see team signing Versteeg (a tad more than first year Grabovski got in Toronto for less and less goals and points) because the Hawks WOULD have no qualms matching if the offer is less. If the offer is at the figure above they would have a choice and probably would move another player(s) to keep Versteeg.
If one or two of the time-delayed qualifyting offers were late, I would think that Vesteeg and Barker's agents may think they have the most to gain my free agency.
I really don't think the actual players are the ones that want to move on. It is just an agent trying to get an upper hand for his player, and I cannot begrudge the agent for that.
When you see your team, the one you want to play for, running up a Cap tab, you tend to get worried, I would think, and if you were to be made a UFA, the Hawks may be more willing to make sure they secure you over another RFA if they want you back.
Think about the RFAs.... which would really want to move?
Probably the ones who stand to lose playing time, because all nHLers want to get as much ice as possible.
Lets not even get started on what the offers were..i would assume your correct on versteeg ..i was just kidding about 500,000 lousy grand. I could barely pay my servants with that chump change!!
i heard the oil business pays more than that..A LOT MORE!
Oh, and re-read the TSN Dreger make a story out of nothing, and it says SOME of the players may have gotten the qualifying offers late, NOT all the Hawk players.
If that is the case and not an English error, there is a nugget-sized leg to stand on that THAT player(s) should be singled out for unfair treatment and be an unrestricted free agent, when all players had offers sent out at the same time.
Gosh, If you sent me the same letter on the same from Chicago to Florida, I am quite sure I would receive it BEFORE I got the letter sent to my old Lincoln park home.
You should be punished too. It just is so Dreger dumb the entire issue.
Barker or agent: "Where's my offer ? Oh I will call the league they will know if one was made." Yeah, do a little work for your money.
Look how much I get paid to post more than everyone else here!
that is verbatim from TSN..you could have pasted the link lol...
I love controversey
I believe this will be covered up but it is a mistake that will have consequences and they could be:
1. Hold their RFA status because that would help the hawks cap situation where they clearly should not benefit
2. Fine them as well and reinstate their RFA status
3. Revoke draft choices...an this would hurt the most even more than making them live up to their cap obligations
4. Make them free agents and open a large gaping hole in the PA relationship
yes i am a HUGE hawks fan ..just wanted to remind you guys
I seems to me that IF THE QUALIFYING OFFERS WERE MADE, the one day delay means nothing.
What? The player has to wait one day before the Islanders or Atlanta get to offer them twice what they are worth? The chances of a team front loading the contracts MIGHT happen anyway if a team thinks the Hawks cannot afford to pay the matching price, but it is doubtful.
What does happens with the RFAs is it slows any defenseman shopping.
Doesn't anybody think Dale may approach an over Cap team budget the way he did last summer, continually saying "well, we will get down we will get down, etc." to end up having no one clin the unwanted Knabby?
We may see all the qualified guys go to arbitration, and believe me they have liitle case with the arbitrator.
Barker: I need a raise. Hawks: sorry he has been overpaid, match production/miutes with the league average and you will see he was well over his worth.
Versteeg: I was almost rookie of the year, pay me. Hawks: Almost isn't the winner ,you came in third.
The hawks and their attendance are the league darlings...does anyone really think Bettman will rule the RFAs into UFAs on a technicality that so minute? If a player or his agent wanted to know the offer, it if discovered just calling the league office.
Looks like TSN is starting to be the FOX news of hockey with sensationalized story lines that will be solved without much problem. Have another tea party
Are you a commie? FOX tells it like it is and doesn't kiss the backside of the annointed one.
TSN is simply reporting what they believe. If the writer is way out of line (read his wording carefully), TSN will have no choice but to reprimand him. But for now, he's injecting his opinion with what appears to be the fact. He is calling it that way. Just because you don't like it, it doesn't mean its sensationalized and you equating it to FOX, who by the way is the only news network that doesn't kiss that socialist's backside.
Ok you must be receiving a paycheck from FOX..cuz that is the most ridiculous statement ive heard in a long while. Imagine someone backing up the self servers of the world, maybe some old fashioned life expierence would cure you from "I believe what i watch/hear on TV" crap!
gimme a break ..i hope its your last post on the matter..but ill bet it wont be!
"who by the way is the only news network that doesn't kiss that socialist's backside."
Too funny and would you believe we have TONS of cap room next year as well LMAO
But you had to know that you were going to take heat for it, Wiz.
Note that the responses don't exactly DENY the truth of the analogy as much as they support and wish to defend the network's conservative ideology.
The more acute and narrow the ideology, I imagine the more "biased" every other network appears, but is it really feasible to assume every other network on the planet is on the take except Fox?
And how can one network simultaneously play the oppressed, martyred minority AND claim to be the voice of the majority?
A compromised Fourth Estate is good for business, but it's gangrenous to a democratic society.
I consider every poster on here a Brother-in-Hawk, but think it through, fellas.
I'm finishing up my PhD in American History, and if I come across Jefferson's view on collective bargaining or the instigator rule in the literature, I'll be sure to let you all know...
I wasn't defending Fox so much as questioning the linkage between Fox and the Tea Party Movement. I should have been more clear. Now, I haven't participated in any "Tea Party" protests and don't plan to any time soon, but I found it quite ironic that Wiz (on the Fourth of July) could be so dismissive of activities that resonate so deeply with our origins as a nation. It sure is funny how some activities seem "un-American" (or "American") depending on who is in office and who is not. I am not a big fan of Obama's and kind of enjoy watching the reaction he is getting.
Nor am I a big fan of Fox's (I never watch it), but I certainly have no illusions about the other networks' ideological bent/s. Furthermore, do you really think - in the age of the internet - that we actually have a monolithic "Fourth Estate" that can be "compromised?"
Wiz's main point, I think - and one he could have made without bringing up the Tea Parties - was that Fox tends to traffic in sensational journalism more than the other networks. Tough to argue that point. Now, whether TSN is like Fox? Hmmmmm?
Oh, and by the way, I already have a Ph.D. in American History. And I do think Sam Adams et al would be spinning in their graves over the scope and reach of the central government. But they have likely been spinning since the 1860s, if not earlier.
All in all, there really was no need for Wiz to inject politics into this discussion, but now that he has . . . .
I disagree, but that's fine.
If you do hold a PhD, you must know that every Founding Father in a position of power expanded the scope and reach of government, sometimes reluctantly but often out of necessity (read: a crisis). Washington, for example, wasted no time dissolving Danny Shays' delusion of individual liberty.
It's impossible to say what a given Founding Father would think (Sam Adams wouldn't make my list of major players unless we were talking about beer or bullying tax collectors), but based on their writings, I can't imagine you believe that the 50-goal scorers of Colonial America--Jefferson, Madison, J. Adams, and Franklin--would have more in common with the today's messianic, anti-intellectual neoconservative movement than with Obama's liberalism.
Hey, I'm not attaching a value to it, and if you have a primary text suggesting otherwise, I'd be happy to take a look, my friend.
Go Hawks.
Unfortunately, I live and teach a great distance from Chicago now, as it would be great to talk hockey and American history with another Blackhawk fan - irrespective of potential political and intellectual differences. I have academic friends who care nothing for hockey, and hockey friends who care little for academics . . . .
My last academic-related remarks for Southpaw only:
Do you question whether I actually hold a Ph.D. because you surmise that I am not Progressive? Yes, I really have earned one, from a major private university just to the east of Chicago, if you get my drift. As for the Founding Fathers and current politics, I think both political parties can and do legitimately tap into various aspects of America's multifaceted political tradition/history. Interestingly, although you could draw some sort of line from Hamiltonian Federalism to the Whigs and then the Republicans of the 19th century, many of the characteristics marking that line can be ascribed of the current Democratic Party rather than the Republican Party. As you well know, contemporary Republicans often, then, tap into aspects of Anti-Federalist critiques of the Constitution and then subsequent 19th c. Democratic principles of small and limited government. In other words, both parties are an amalgam of historical political emphases. Both party lines, since the late 18th c., have used the ambiguous language of republicanism to suit their own purposes at various times. Would the Founding Fathers share the anti-intellectual populism that dominates popular conservatism today? By no means. However, Jeffersonians would share contempary Republican suspicion re. govt. In any case, my larger point was to emphasize that the Tea Parties are American to the core, agree or disagree with them.
You may have the last word, and I will try hard to stick to hockey only from here on out.