Pressure on Bowman now
So the Blackhawks have a new GM today in Stan Bowman. I’m not so sure what Dale Tallon did wrong to get demoted, but president John McDonough and chairman Rocky Wirtz obviously have their reasons.
Was it the mistake made in sending out those qualifying offers late to the restricted free agents? How could it be? In the press release sent out by the Hawks announcing Bowman’s promotion, it touted the 36-year-old as the guy in charge of all collective bargaining matters and contracts.
Wouldn’t that put Bowman in charge of making sure the offers went out on time? You would think so.
Tallon was hardly incompetent, as some have suggested. He made some shrewd trades (Versteeg, Havlat, Sharp), drafted well and put together a fast and exciting team that packed the United Center went to the Western Conference finals.
He simply wasn’t McDonough’s guy, or a Rocky Wirtz guy. Period. Tallon had too many ties to the ugly past, was too much his own man, talked to the media too much and was too honest with the press for the new power guys.
This new Hawks organization is many good things, but you the fans and us the media only hear what they want us to hear, from Wirtz to McDonough to Joel Quenneville. Pretty soon they’ll be telling Adam Burish to shut the heck up.
Tallon told me last spring he thought he would get fired if the Hawks lost the Flames in the first round. He saw the writing on the wall. It wasn’t hard to miss.
Now the pressure is on Bowman to keep the ball rolling toward a Stanley Cup. It's a very good team he inherits and there can be no mistakes made going forward. Bowman never has been a GM, which is curious that McDonough would hire someone with such little experience.
These new Hawks have only gone after the best available to this point, from players to Quenneville. Can the 36-year-old Bowman get the job done? We shall soon find out.
Oh boy..it sucks..new years eve with a 7:35 start..8 game road trip in Jan....9 of last 14 on the road..only two sunday matinee's...what a loser schedule for the fans...more home games in early feb..when it's the artic outside..brutal
Watch for McDoYa to start moving the goal posts, or at least the goal.
Rocky threw down the challenge to win a Stanley Cup. It was ballsy and refreshing. Few owners would have done so.
Now that McDoYa has put his fingers in the pie he may try to move away from that goal. Watch for the spin sounding more like that of the Cubs: 'We want to be competitive'. We want to make a run'. 'We are just one or two positions away'.
Then, we can all "Wait for next year" in perpetuity.
I can't believe all the negativism regarding this move.
I will say this about McDonough, he was never a player on the field when the Cubs choked. During his tenure with the Cubs, he allowed all the right moves to be made. By right I mean that they were consensus good moves according to baseball experts.
If a senior management member isn't involved I think there is a problem. If he is heavy handed that is a different matter, but this is not evident here. If Tallon or Bowman or any GM on any team can free wheel on his own without getting others input and blessing before pulling the trigger, I'd like to know who they are. Building a team takes a team effort from the front office. The league and the rules and regulations are way too cumbersome for it to be a one man show.
I like Tallon, I have nothing to say against Bowman. I like hockey. I watch the players, I go to games to watch the players not the front office. I cannot do the things that the guys in the front office can do. I like to think I know a lot about hockey, been watching and playing since 1959. But I know I don't know a tenth of what they know. So I sit back and let them do their jobs and I enjoy watching. I wish them all the best.
For all your posts, I must say they have been amusing. One question though, when did the president of the United States become irish? hahaha....Not that anyone cares, but I read everyday and contribute very sparingly. Mostly I think you people are very knowledgable hockey fans and I appreciate your insight.
I agree with you...i usually try to stay out of things i know nothing about(which is 99% of it) but this PR stuff is driving me crazy.
Yes, Havlat might be jilted. But what he describes sure sounds plausible. From TSN story:
"My negotiation with Chicago was not between Dale and my agent, it was between Dale and McDonough," Havlat said "Why? Because McDonough couldn't stand that Dale was so successful and getting the credit for building the Hawks from a last place team to making the Conference Final in three short years. Remember, we were also the youngest team in the NHL last year."
"I was too closely identified with Dale," he continued. "McDonough knew long ago he was going to fire Dale. He wanted someone he could claim as his own He wanted to stand up at the convention and claim credit for signing this guy or that guy."
and in some ways, I like him better than hossa, tho obviously hossa has been the more durable.
that said, the hawks couldn't afford to offer him (or hossa) long term deals if they wanted to keep enough cap room to sign keith, toews & kane.
hossa will be 38 when his salary drops to $4M (for 4 more years after that) meaning the hawks (i.e. rocky) would have to spend $10M just to buy him out, & hawks would take a cap hit for the next 8 years or until hossa turned 46...
with the economic uncertainty ahead & cap expected to go down, the hawks now don't have any cap flexibility just like last year when they had to dump lang's $4M for no dollars back despite needing a 2nd line center....
if Tallon was allowed to sign havlat to what hossa was signed for, that would have been an even bigger risk considering havlat's injury history, but hossa's signing was very shortsighted.
Or maybe he just wanted someone a little less fragile who plays well every year, not just in contract years.
I have to confess, as much as I liked Havlat (and I was never as down on him during his injury years as many others were), I think Hossa is better all around. We shall see. Sounds like Tallon was willing to take a risk with Havlat's proneness to injury.
in the 2 year deal he signed? anyone know about such matters.
Illl bet the 2 year deal was to keep him from being hired elsewhere..imagine the bond he has with the current players and what that could parlay into them switching teams in the future. For McD its "keep your ememies closer"...
sorry for the rant guys ..just think rocky made it worse by opening his yap....maybe McD should have told him to be an owner and shut up!!!
its all in the PR
I am sure he can walk anytime..yes it's hush money and he apparently will chat with the media about 3:30 maybe it's a conference call this afternoon. He is probably at a golf course anyway so this makes sense. His new deal actually 3 years..2 added to the one he still had, seems to run out about the time J-Macs does...hmmm
It's hush money, just like they paid Savard to be an ambassador. McDonough is always a marketing guy first, and he won't allow any more negative press than what he's getting right now. He's no dummy, he knows he'll take a beating at the convention, but just like after the Savard firing, this will blow over, unless they wet the bed and don't live up to expectations this year.
Just like Savard, though, how does Tallon take that extension? Will he be different from Savard in that teams will actually be interested in his services at some point? I guess we'll see.
The big diffence here was Savard was not a very good coach and Tallon has a great eye for talent .
Well then someone will hire him eventually. Maybe to evaluate talent for the draft, I'm not sure anyone will be too keen on his ability to identify and sign free agent talent in the cap age.
For someone who`s main goal is good publicity, the last few weeks must be killing him because this reflects on him and he cant control it. Everytime a story breaks on TSN/elsewhere ...he is responsible bottom line for the fall out, thats his job.
Hey the hockey world is giggling at us right now..they tried to make Tallon take the fall for the RFAs/other issues but then havlat and many columnists spoke up in support of him, Than the last person who should have been speaking on the record Rocky Wirtz, gave an impromptu attempt at a positive spin of getting younger staff that has since backfired. Than McDonough`s own Manager speak of BS basically said Tallon wasnt right for the job that he had been effective at (his words) for the last few years.
So what is Scotty Bowman`s take in all of this? thats right he is not saying anything because he is the puppet master in all of this...
Tallon might not have been perfect but with all the mistakes the organization has made since then (and they all count)...Do you still believe Tallon`s firing was the solution...Tim S doesnt think so from his column.
A young team on the rise after our best season in years with a loaded team and still our front office cannot keep out the bad press thats festering. How long before some of the players get sick of it (toews)..nobody wants to be a laughing stock...I would love to be at the convention although i have had enough cryptic BS in the last 2 weeks.
boldirev, I think this is short term as far as the negative press. Just like I said, they got ripped pretty good for the Savard firing, and that blew over. As far as Havlat, is anyone with a clue taking him seriously? Is it hard to see he's just bitter they didn't give him the multi-year deal that Hossa got? And loyalty talk from a guy like that? He gave them one good year in a contract year, is injury prone, topped off by a concussion in the playoffs. The Hawks owed him nothing.
My opinion of Tallon's firing? It was a year too late, see the Campbell and Huet mistakes. Not that anyone, myself included, really knows, but once Bowman got here, who really was calling the shots anyway? Tallon bought more time because they went to the conference finals. Whether Tallon went now or at the end of the year when his contract was up, it was only a matter of time (unless they won the Cup). And for the record, I am not a McDonough fan. I saw his tactics with the Cubs, and I see more of it with the Hawks. Don't have to win to make money, just have to create a perception for the majority of fans that they have a chance to win.
I've also had it with all of this BS. Just settle on the roster this year and win the damn Cup, because no one knows what the following year will bring.
But joining Havlat on the so called list of "Whiners" is Rick Dudley who stated on the Fan590 that McDonough is involving himself more and more with "Hockey" decisions.
the link
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/blackhawks-confidential/2009/07/dudley-m...
Yes Dudley is good friends with Tallon as Scotty is with McDonough...Tallon stormed out of his office before the firing and we have Havlat and Dudley backing him up...
Still think Havlat has no merit?
I think it was a two year extension. Added to the year he had left, that means Dale's "in the fold" for at least 3 more years. I just heard McD interviewed by Matt Spiegel and Barry Rozner on the Score, and that's the impression he gave anyway.
http://www.670thescore.com/episode_download.php?contentType=36&contentId...
in the fold for 3 more years
What did you think about McD'S interview ?
I think he danced around the issues and did not really answer any of the big questions. It makes sense though, if you think about it. He just replaced Dale as GM. Removed/re-assigned, call it what you want, Dale got demoted. But for whatever the reason/motive, Dale is still part of the organ-I-zation. If McD wants to get anything of value out of Dale for the next 3 years, it would make no sense to kick Dale while he's down by ripping him a new one on a local radio show, or anywhere else for that matter. Whether you agreed with Dale's removal or not, I think you have to admit that at this point it would only be counterproductive for McD to go into any great detail about how/why he arrived at the decision to remove Dale from office. Time to move on.
I direct your attention to the interview from this paper..and would you be happy with someone questioning your decision making skills??? read the last para carefully as it leads one to believe Dale must report or ask permission to make decisions.
"McDonough, after a long pause, admitted the GM change wouldn't have been made from Tallon to Stan Bowman had there not been that problem with the qualifying offers.
"Probably not," McDonough said.
There were other issues as well.
McDonough pointed to the need for better decision-making from the GM, which could be interpreted in many ways, possibly a reference to either length or expense of contracts given to Brian Campbell, Dustin Byfuglien and Brent Sopel in the past several years.
"Some of the areas I think we need to improve on are the decision-making areas," McDonough said.
THIS ONE! Manager speak for i must be informed!!!!!
"How decisions are made, who is involved, timetables that are involved, just the process. I think we will improve that."
...he never ripped Tallon. Demoting him for the reasons stated was in fact "ripping" him. All I'm saying is, now that the deed is done, McD gains nothing by ripping him any further, and that's why he danced around the questions he was asked in the interview TODAY. If he keeps bad mouthing Dale going forward, why would Dale be compelled to do his new job with any kind of enthusiasm. He wouldn't. So McD chooses not to dance on the mans proverbial grave. What's done is done. It's over, history, in the past, yesterday's news (literally). McD's ready to move on with Dale in the fold, I think all the whiners on this site need to do the same. I'm ready. Let's get in on. Drop the puck!
When somebody doesnt agree with you?? right
Your naive if you think its over...the hockey world isnt black and white. If you cant see the possible fallout of this i wont waste my breath ..
When you keep saying the same things over and over and over and over and over........
Thats all you say...i touch on all issues not just the easy ones...if you cant defend your opinion without calling someone a whiner than what does that say about you???
That ALL of your issues are the same. You think Dale got screwed. Great. Your entitled to your opinion. I disagree. New topic.
But reading between the lines in his answers you kind of get the impression that it's just that he doesn't get along with Tallon.
ESPN seems to sum it up by saying McDonough wanted his guy. Of course it is ESPN (we'll cover poker, spelling bee's and bowling over hockey) ...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/story?columnist=burnside_scott&id=...
Not sure if anyone posted this yet....but very cutting for McD!!!!
http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=284740
Thanks for posting the link. I hope it's just sour grapes but who knows for sure. I think the pressure is going to be on big time now. The Hawks need a stong start to the season and all this goes away. On the other hand if they get off to a bad start this whole mess could spiral out of control. Would our UFA'S and other UFA'S still consider this a destination point and want to come here or stay here if the organization appears to be unstable? My concern is that this is not a veteran team. If it were they could care less about the front office nonsense. The fact of the matter is there isn't any veteran leadership. How a young team handles this is key. If they treat it as a business fine. If not and they feel like someone they trusted got hosed look out it could be a bumpy ride.
I think Wirtz has just started his slow downhill spiral in popularity. I probably couldnt articulate to explain what i mean but this defensive PR move just comes off as a poorly timed excuse to get rid of his righthand man`s problem.
WHY? would he need to give an interview at this time to lamely express "needing young guys in the GM seat" (human rights issue??)... I agree with those who felt the Tallon thing should have been "executed" a month ago as we might be past this by now. The more i take this all in ....
I really believe they were waiting to set dale up for failure and than put him out to pasture..."important role in the future of the hawks"...my @ss!!! I guess our powerplay (frontoffice) is vastly improved now.
Get out while you still have your reputation and dignity intact Dale!!
The guy loves publicity and getting his face on camera. I hope his ego doesn't cost us the Cup we have been waiting so long for.
When the Hossa rumor first came about i thought it was strange since i assumed we would make a mistake and resign havlat, (injury probe, cap issue) it did come out of the blue.
This just has a ring of truth in that Scotty/McD wanted their guy (hossa) instead of havlat and would circumvent the normal negotiating process to get their way!
But im sure havlat added garbage because most everyone when jilted will exaggerate a little!
I am a little less an enthusiastic fan since Bowman was named GM..regardless
When we need to make a trade for cap relief we decide to get rid of Tallon. If you like or dislike Tallon I think we can agree that the one thing he was definitely good at was making trades. So now when we have to trade away excess salary to prepare for next summer's RFAs we have a rookie GM with no experience in that department. Every other GM knows we need to clear space and can now play hard ball. I totally see us getting fleeced here. I hope I am wrong.
spacek for salmalainen, babchuk for richmond, samsonov for adams, lang dumped purely for salary cap reasons since his trade created a hole at center, that later was filled by moving wizniewski for pauhlsson who was lost to UFA...also the hawks ended up with nothing to show for the williams deal.
yea, sharp & versteeg were good deals, but you need to look at all of them to get an overall, objective picture.
add the fact that he as GM has to assume responsibility for the campbell, huet & hossa signings that created the current cap mess that jeopardizes the chances of keeping Tallon's prized draft picks of toews & kane, & which may force indiscriminate salary dumping (see lang trade & waiving of khabi last year), that has to enter into the trade evaluation process as well.
people are overstating Tallon's contributions while ignoring the fact that the NHL rewards inept teams with high draft picks & teams that are inept for a decade get a lot of high picks ..then repeatedly throw enough of the owners money at UFAs who put that as their top priority when selecting a team to sign with & it is pretty hard for a team to stay bad longer than the hawks were.
Let's remember that McDonut was the overlord of many spectacular Cubs collapses. He is a marketing man not a sports guy.
Teams like the Pens, the Blues, the Coyotes, and Caps are also loaded with talent to the rafters. This era is almost a carbon copy of the 80's when the Hawks and Oilers had all the talent but only the Oilers won the Cup.
JohnnyM was "at the helm" at Clark and Addison for ONE YEAR, basically the 2007 season. The team started out flat, Z beat the crap out of Barret, Lou blew a gasket, they came back from 9 games back in late June to win the division, then lost to the snakes in the NLDS.
What JohnnyM did at Clark and Addison is figure out how to pack the place with some crappy teams. He's a marketer and hires the right people for the right jobs. That's what he does.
McD was Cub president for about 2 years. He was marketing guru for most of the rest of his tenure with the club. Let's not all get worked up about the Hawks becoming the Cubs, OK? One has nothing to do with the other. The personnel decisions are being made by Bowman I and Bowman II.
... besides the money angle the possibility that McDonough and Tallon just didn't get along, or didn't agree on a direction.
Someone else in the thread said we should have seen this when Bowman was hired. Well, most of us did. And you don't hire Scotty Bowman AND retain his son so Dale could get some "advisement". McDonough is a tough, no-nonsense boss, and maybe he pulled a Dallas Green and shook off the whole old regime. If it works, and the success continues, then what? Still gonna cry about these firings?
McDs--ks, John McDonough wasn't Cub president when Soriano signed the big deal. As I posted earlier, the Campbell deal is an example of Dale's inability to balance the books and spend money wisely. God bless Brian Campbell, he became the rushing defenseman they needed, but his mediocre defensive zone skills say that that contract is inflated.
Maybe a lot of Hawk fans are really peeved the Savvy and Dale were cast aside, but how did you like the on ice result? If the front office falls apart, guys leave because the cap is screwed up and we draft Russians with our first 4 picks in the draft for the next 5 years, then you have something to howl about. Until then, look at the big picture.
For Stan Bowman I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as long as Scottie is there to confer with him every step of the way. That's what I hoped for with George W. Bush, that his father would have been conferred with every step of the way (but he obviously wasn't). I think Stan will do a good job as long as Scottie is there to offer his weighty opinion. However, if god forbid Scottie drops dead of a heart attack tommorow, I think Stan's stock will suddenly drop 50%.
To think that a guy who has been a behind the scenes integral part of the front office for 8 years doesn't share in any of the blame for events recent and past is goofy. The Tallon firing might even have been a set up and strategically timed like the Savard firing. One thing for sure is the public will never know all the real subplots in the front office. But so what, we the fans just want to be entertained, we don't have to deal with all the bs in the office. And the spin put on all the logic coming out of the front office is pretty entertaining. I agree with Jacukel's blog on hockeybuzz. Dale Tallon is a good guy, but to make the cut throat decisions that have to be made regarding the players going forward you are going to need a special heartless type of person that Dale is not. Jacukel made reference to the agony on DT's face at the Savard firing news conference, and he's right. Outside of Jacukel defending Huet, I usually agree with him and think that he makes as much sense as any of the writers out there.
Dale had a past with this team long before dollar Bill died, Rocky took over and JohnnyM was brought in.
The old organ-I-zation was all about doing what you had to do to keep your job; regardless of who was in the way.
The biggest move they ever made was not: putting games on TV, hiring McDonough, hiring Scotty or hiring Q. It was the "re-assignment" of Bob Pulford.
Getting rid of Pulford started a series of moves that showed the organ-I-zation the "I" will be removed. If Peter took over, it'd be business as usual and most all of us would not be discussing hockey. We'd be anxiously awaiting Bears training camp.
This stuff takes time. No new organization is built over night. It takes a few years. Note: Dale is known to the FANS as a GOOD GUY. We don't know Dale the GM. We know Dale the gentleman.
Dale simply made too many ill-advised moves. The QO fiasco is a simple out. Tim points out the good Dale stuff. Tim, now try remembering all the contracts the past 15 months or so and what happened with Yawney a couple years back.
Tallon seems like a nice, affable guy but frankly, imo, was never GM material & like Savard, would never have been put in that position by a team that was being properly run based on making the best hockey decisions.
his meek acceptance of a demotion (& public embarrassment if not indignation & humiliation of same) suggests to me that he lacks the personal fortitude needed to win - it is more important to stay a hawk than to prove he personally has what it takes to win as GM somewhere else - maybe he'll get an opportunity elsewhere, but to me it makes him look like he realizes he got the GM job not because he was the most qualified, but only because he was loyal to www (same reason Savard got the coaching job)...
i wouldn't have hired stan bowman as replacement, but i'm going to cut him some slack since I suspect his father is going to have even more input than before & his name is on the cup 9 times, albeit as head coach & not as GM.
i suspect mcdonough (& rocky) are looking at bowman's rings & his motivation to get one more to share together with his son to lead this team forward, rather than Tallon's hope & a prayer that the hawks might win one.
it comes down to Scotty Bowman knowing better than anyone else what it takes to win a cup, doing whatever it takes to do it, and at 75 soon to be 76, knowing he doesn't have a lot of time to accomplish that goal with his son. it looks more & more to be the reason why the hawks are going for it now & signed hossa to a contract that will be an albatross for years & that threatens their ability to keep their young core together longer term...
is Scotty bowman the "new" Pulford??? if so, at least he won't be around as long as bob was, but that may be small consolation if he turns out to be
Why didn't the Hawks fire Tallon along with Savard? That would have made more sense. The Hawks could have used the "we're going in a different direction" bit and that would have made more sense. Instead the team turns out to be pretty good making Tallon's moves look better and masking the mistakes that he made in thepast.
the more pressing issue was the roster of players they had playing to a higher level. A GM change would not get more out of Buff, put the Bolland/Havlat/Ladd line together or get the forwards in general to back-check more. A coaching change would do that; and did do that.
I truly believe Dale was on the clock right after Savvy left. Had it not been for that 9-game winning streak right before the classic (ironically the game it was snapped is when Kaner got hurt), and the team continuing well there-after, Dale would have been gone.
I don't think the timing was bad. During the playoffs: BAD. A few weeks before the draft: BAD. Right before FA opens: BAD. It's either now or during the 09-10 season. They took the earlier rather than the latter. OK, now let's move on.
Do all of the RFA'S affected by the QO situation sign with the Hawks if Tallon is fired (reassigned) before they signed their contracts? Just what are Stans hockey credentials besides having the last name of Bowman. Will he be overmatched vs other GMs when talking trade? Does this front office taffy pull give off a negative impression to players around the league and may have some of them thinking twice about coming here let alone our own future free agents.
Lets see, the Hawks lead the league in attendance, advance to the Western Conference Finals and create all kinds of good press...yeah, lets dump the G.M. Sure, Tallon made some mistakes (who doesn't?) overpaying for some free agents but he drafted extremely well and pulled off some deft trades that made the Blackhawks who they are. I just don't get the timing of this and something smells. Of course, if the Hawks go on to win the cup all will be forgotten but if they don't progress as expected this move will really be questioned. Simply put, Tallon wasn't a Rocky Wirtz or McDonough "guy". Tim says the "new" Hawks brass only tells fans what they (Wirtz,McDonough.Bowman Sr.,Bowman Jr.) want the fans to hear. Good Lord, that sounds like Bob Pulford....please!
this past season that had an influence. Too many guys signed at too high a price. Also too many guys who were thought to be good players and were not. This happened 1~4 years ago.
i would like to hear from some of the players as to what their thoughts are about this. I'm sure it will be spinned favorably at the convention where they give cliches non stop. However, you have to wonder what effect this might have on a young team. Firing Savard who was supposedly overmatched is one thing, but when a GM adds to a conference final team and locks up the players necessary to compete at a high level again, what is the thought process for a player? Talk about a $--t storm.........
Lets hope McDonough's 3 ring circus off the ice doesn't effect the on ice progress.
Right now, they are in deep-doodie if they want to retain even 2 of the big 3 after 09-10. As the economics begin to drop, other teams will want to dump salary. The market could be flooded with players. It could get messy.
Remember, the cap may (and I think will) go down; to the tune of $3M-$4M for 10-11 or basically the value of a Versteeg -or- Barker -or- Bolland yearly salary.