Hossa not rushing it
Marian Hossa skated Friday for the first time since undergoing shoulder surgery on July 24.
While Hossa still isn't expected to play until late November, getting back on the ice was a big step in his rehab from surgery to repair a torn rotator cuff.
"If I feel comfortable with the shoulder, I would like to maybe come back sooner, but that's only if I feel comfortable," Hossa said. "If I don't, I'd rather wait an extra week and make sure it's 100 percent right."
Hossa can only skate for now with little stick handling and no shooting. The Hawks will begin to incorporate some stick handling into Hossa's on-ice routine next week followed by some light shooting.
"It's good that he's back on the ice, he's been really progressing, but he's still a long ways away," Hawks coach Joel Quenneville said. "He's certainly on due course and we're excited he's progressing the way he is. We're looking forward to him returning, but we're taking baby steps right now."
Also on Friday, Jack Skille was assigned to Rockford for the third time this week. Skille is expected to be recalled for Saturday's game against Dallas at the United Center.
Skille has gone back to Rockford betwene games in order for the Hawks to save his $1.25 million salary cap hit on those days he is technically in the minors.
The Hawks are obviously gearing up to win it all this year which is fine with me. The Cap guarantees change next season and it could be that the team will lose at least one of the Big 3 because of it. Or they might lose Sharp or Versteeg. Or maybe Buff. Who knows at this point.
All I know is that it is a rare season when the Hawks have been determined to win it all and if that means a little drunken sailor spending then that's what it means. There's always change anyway.....just compare this Hawks team to the one that ended the season five months ago. What I don't want to see is change for stupid reasons like what we saw in the old days with Belfour, Chelios and others. Thankfully this regime seems well beyond operating in that manner.
After this season the Hawks won't be the only team dumping payroll anyway which is something all players are going to have to face. Also, is someone like Toews going to want to sign with a lousy franchise that is under the cap like Nashville or Phoenix? I can actually see Atlanta making a pitch to Kane, especially if they lose Ovalchuck, but is Kane going to want to go play for team that has no chance to win and has 4000 fans in attendance most nights after playing in the excitement here?? Not likely no matter what they offer him.
Anyway, I'm just going to enjoy this season and worry about what happens later while occasionally humming my mantra of "In Scotty I Trust".
"I can actually see Atlanta making a pitch to Kane, especially if they lose Ovalchuck, but is Kane going to want to go play for team that has no chance to win and has 4000 fans in attendance most nights after playing in the excitement here?? Not likely no matter what they offer him."
this millionaire kid (who happens to have terrific hockey skill when he puts his mind to playing) beat up a poor little cabbie over a $.20 tip...
in a cap world, you actually believe he's not going to go where the money is?
nothing personal, but based on what some people post here, they aren't thinking too clearly - it is all simple, wishful dreaming... nothing wrong with that, i suppose, but don't get upset when your bubble is burst...
I enjoy the game and especially this team but I don't look at this in any manner but as a business which is what it is. No matter what gets spoken at the convention or in the papers the Hawks management will look at this the same way. The market and the various salary caps will dictate what the players will be offered. Players who want more than what the market dictates or what the Hawks are willing to pay will be dealt or not signed. That's the reality.
Another reality is that the vast majority of the great players that have been free agents have refused to sign with dead in the water franchises even if it meant taking less cash elsewhere. I know Kane has gotten the rep that he's selfish which then leads to him just playing for the most cash. Maybe that will prove true, but maybe not. All of the superstars are millionaires so the question becomes is it worth it to take more money to disappear from the planet for five years in Nashville, Atlanta or Phoenix? Most NHL superstars have answered no. Maybe Kane or Toews or Keith will answer yes. We'll see. But besides cash the buyer teams will need to toss a few draft choices to the Hawks for RFA's and that makes losing key guys less likely.
In any case there will be change. There always has been and there always will be. Via injuries, trades, poor play and free agency, players come and go like gypsies in the night as do coaches, upper management....and fans when the team is horrific like the Hawks were for ten years. That's why I'm just sitting back and enjoying what is happening today and will let the market handle everything else after the season is done. I hope Kane, Keith, Toews and others stay but the real world may intercede. Regardless of what happens my one and only dream regarding the Hawks this year is that they win the Cup - 48 years between championships is more than enough time to wait.
the system is designed to promote parity and has had the effect (whether desired or not) of punishing previously well-managed teams like detroit from spending to keep their talent together and favoring small non-hockey market teams that had trouble competing whether it was due to mismanagement or financial disadvantages. it has put the focus on acquiring, developing & keeping relatively "cheap" good young talent.
even "bad" teams like the islanders & atlanta now have good young players on the rise - tavares, bailey, evander kane, bogosian, etc.
most good young teams that have risen from the ashes in recent years have recognized this & locked up their good young talent long term - see pittsburgh, washington, anaheim, carolina, columbus, LA, etc.
the hawks are one of the few teams that have put the priority on going after big UFAs & locking them up to ridiculous long term deals over getting their young guys locked up.
it is ironic that you claim that you "don't look at this in any manner but as a business" then later state "Another reality is that the vast majority of the great players that have been free agents have refused to sign with dead in the water franchises even if it meant taking less cash elsewhere."
so you as a fan claim to look at this as a business, but expect agents & players (who actually are in the business) to look at it like fans?!?!
sorry, but the irony is palpable.
becasue next year they will have a much different look. If Kane, Toews and Keith get signed you can say goodbye to Ladd, Barker, Versteeg, Skille and very likely Campbell and Huet if they can find them a home. That is probably what it will take to keep the big three. No use worrying about it now as we may as well enjoy what we have now. If one of our goalies or both can pull their weight we could go all the way or will at least make a run. In regards to Skille who take a lot of heat I really believe this young man will eventually be a decent top six forward on some team other than the Hawks. He can skate and shoot as well as anyone and he just needs to mature to the point that he can give a hundred percent every night.
I can't entirely agree with you here man. I don't think the Hawks will need to drop that much salary to keep them around. The guys you mentioned are about 21-22 mil in salary plus they are already paying Kane, Toews and Keith about 8 mil which comes off the books as well. Plus, I think after this one year contract, the Hawks will part ways with John Madden, so there is an additional 2.75 in space. I also think we might be more likely to see someone like Buf traded, as he will only have one year left on his contract, as opposed to Versteeg or Barker who would still have two more.
Bulin39, as I said last week, nothing personal here, but you are exaggerating the problem.
First, Kane, Toews and Keith are all RESTRICTED free agents. How many offer sheets have been tendered for high profile RFA's over the last couple of summers? Not bloody many and none that I actually recall. Why? The price is HIGH. Lots of money to make an offer that the player's team can't match and, in the case of those three players, a first and third round draft pick in compensation.
Yes, a few teams might be in position, regardless, to make a run at one or two of them, but the Hawks have WAY more leverage with them as RFAs than they do with them as UFAs.
Second, those guys are going to be paid $5-6 million a year a piece. AND, there are whispers that a couple of them could be fairly long-term deals, meaning the Hawks can spread out or backload the cap hit on any of the deals to make the dollars work in any given year. Remember, these guys aren't in their 30s. They're young and there's not a blasted thing the NHL can do about the above, because none of their deals are going to extend til they're 40. The arbitrary age the stupid league put on any investigation of such deals.
So, the cap hit for those three deals next year will be no higher than $18 million, and is conceivably going to be more like $12-15 million. Subtract their current salaries ($8 million) from that and you have a needed salary shed of approximately $4-10 million, most likely $4-8 million.
Ways that can be paid for: buy out Huet and trade Barker and you're already in the neighborhood. Madden either doesn't re-up, or does so for less $. Right there, you probably have it done. PLUS, the cap is not going down next year. The arenas are full. Corporate dollars are not draining out of the game as was predicted last year. If anything, it's going to go up a little next year.
Plus, there are spare parts like Skille and Eager that might not be back either. They'll get them signed, net loss Cam Barker and Skille or Eager. Maybe Versteeg.
CHF, no way they deal Byfuglien.
As you pointed out the big three are all RFA,s next year and not many of them have been offered big deals from other clubs. Agreed. My point is I never said or indicated in any way that these guys are going anywhere. I fully expect all of them signed to long term deals. You are suggesting that I feel otherwise.
The point I was trying to make is that for those three stars to be locked up and Hossa, Campbell and Huet already locked to huge deals that there will not be much left in the kitchen to feed the rest of the family. Ladd is also a RFA and will be looking for a raise or somebody else will surely make him an offer. That is why I say we will lose at least three or four very good players out of a group that may include Buff, Versteeg, Barker, Ladd. They may be forced to keep guys like Skille and all the rest that are a million or less. Also if Niemi pans out and I think he will he will also be in for a raise. Also JJ I posted an apology to you the other day and hopefully you accept. I will continue to be myself calling things as I see them and try to me more diplomatic with blogs I do not agree with. I very much enjoy this site as the regular posters are pretty good and I enjoy their input.
I didn't see it, but thanks.
And keep calling it like you see it. :)
so your strategy is to play hardball with your young core & "force" their agent to take less than market value, even with a guy like keith who has been vastly underpaid & DESERVES a subtantial raise AFTER you've blown the cap on Campbell, Huet & a 30 something Hossa????
you think those guys (kane, keith & toews) then won't recognize that they've been screwed???
nothing personal, but that is idiotic thinking. do you work for the hawks by any chance?
(deep cleansing breath)
Who said anything about "less than market value?" WHO?!
What I said was: the market will determine what they get.
I believe that will be an average cap hit of 5-6 million a year. You claim it will be 7-8 million. Neither you nor I determine their market value. But your estimate is (by far) the highest I have seen or heard anywhere.
All I know is, when teams don't make offers to RFAs like Kessel and others, you can't estimate RFA market value as being comparable to UFAs.
And Kane, Keith and Toews can't demand $7-8 million a year (as RFAs or UFAs) when Duncan Keith is not (yet) Nik Lidstrom (7.45 million), Toews is not (yet) Pavel Datsyuk ($6.4 million), and Patrick Kane is not (yet) Henrik Zetterberg ($6 million).
You seem to think the market for these players is based on the Hawks' payroll. It's not. It's based on what other players make in the NHL. And what other teams are willing to pay. THAT'S the market, end of story.
You can't rationalize a $7 million a year deal for Keith because of Campbell for two reasons: Campbell was a UFA (Keith's not), AND Campbell (whether you like him or not) provides a skill that no other player on the Hawks (including Keith) has, the ability to run an elite power play. Don't think so? Go look at the Hawks' PP numbers before and after Campbell.
Keith will be very happy with a $4 million (or more) raise.
Market value for these guys as RFAs is going to be around 5-6 million a year, unless someone has the room to chump up over $6 mil. a year for one of them and is willing to forego a first round pick and a third round pick.
And Chico, you can caveat it with "nothing personal" all you want, your tone implies you have a bit of a bug up your a--.
Lighten up. It'll do you a world of good.
I hear you JJ.
I think there is a LOT of panicking here and we haven't even heard or read what these 3 will want. The main point is that they're all RFAs, and I don't recall many teams being able to give up multiple 1st and 2nd rnd picks, to sign these guys to contracts that would blow the Hawks out of the water. So sorry, TSN, it isn't going to happen. IF anyone goes....it will be Kane. Toews is your captain, and Keith is your top d-man. THey will be paid first.
What also needs to be kept in my mind, is exactly what you pointed out. We all love the 3 of these guys, but they aren't in the Malkin, Crosby, Zetterberg, Lidstrom, or Datysuk league.....yet. In fact, this is a typical start for Kane. He starts off guns blazing, then tails off in December/January. Lets see if he can crack 82 pts this year. Toews, is going to be a marque power forward, who should score 35+ goals a year because he's not afraid to go to the dirty spots. As soon as Q puts a grinder on this line to help him out, he'll take off. Will Toews ever win the Art Ross or Hart Trophy? No. Will he be an outstanding 2 way center and future letter wearer for team Canada? Probably.
Keith is outstanding, but still games where he makes multiple mistakes. He's the closest thing to being paid what WE think he should be. He should get considerable Norris consideration this year, especially if the defense keep as active as they have been.
My point is, and take all the marketing crap/jersey sales out of it, none of these guys are worth 6+ million a year except for maybe Keith. Maybe 5 million, but that's it. As of now. Until they start producing like the previous mentioned, they won't be paid that amount. If somebody, Buffalo?, wants to throw the bank at Kane...go ahead. Give me the multiple picks and cap relief, and I'll take our chances with Sharp, Buff, Hossa, Toews, Bolland as your core forwards.
So that's all take deep breaths, and watch what happens. Like I posted earlier, nobody knows how this cap works, and almost every website I found contradicts an earlier one....I would hope that the folks in the ivory tower would get 1 of the 3 locked in before the holidays.
sorry, I should & will try to laugh at your hysterical posts in future giving you the benefit of the doubt that you can't help but fill space with empty, rambling, incoherent, illogical posts ;-)
in one breath you say the market will establish their value, the next breath you imply that these guys are going to have to accept less because the cap strapped hawks supposedly have leverage since these guys are RFAs & not UFAs...
in other words the hawks are going to tell them & their agents they are worth less than UFAs because they happen to be RFAs (essentially ignoring the "value" these guys bring & contribute to the team on & off the ice - which is a helluva lot more than campbell, huet & hossa) and essentially daring them & their agents if they don't like it, to test the RFA market...
I say that is the same shortsighted & yes IDIOTIC thinking so typical under the old www regime - alienate your homegrown talent while excessively rewarding those brought in from outside the organization.
I said throughout last season that Tallon should let Havlat & Khabi walk (after he failed to trade them by the deadline) & his first priority should have been to extend Keith, Toews & Kane - the real leaders of this team - by approaching them first - acknowledging their leadership status & giving them first dibs on the remaining cap pie, telling them that the organization was committed to building a cup winner but needed them to also be leaders financially in negotiating their contracts - if they decided to take more, there would be less for the remaining parts - if they took less, there would obviously be more for the remaining pieces & an improved team overall...
by doing that, the hawks could have acknowledged them as the real leaders (on the ice & financially) & essentially set their own team cap where no one would have gotten more than those 3...
instead, the hawks sign hossa & bolland to ridiculous long term deals, further strangling their ability to deal effectively with the true core "homegrown" leadership of the team - unlike what pittsburgh or washington or even detroit have done.
with fans like you, it is no wonder the hawks do what they do... lol
if it goes down, look out.
I don't think Phoenix is going to embrace the Coyotes even if they make the playoffs, given that their future there is very uncertain. ditto for florida, atlanta, tampa, nashville, carolina, etc. Even "hotbeds" like dallas, colorado, new jersey, anaheim, LA, SJ, Ottawa & yes, DETROIT, are vulnerable (in terms of attendance & revenues) if their teams don't do as well on the ice.
the hawks dramatic attendance increase last season masked much of the drop in other cities last year (& probably caused Tallon to stupidly think their cap would keep going up) and that increase won't be there this year since they are already at capacity...same applies to washington, boston & the canadian teams...only so many Hawk Hossa jerseys are going to sell...
I figure Kane & Toews are going to at least get Kessel money & their agent can (& imo will) make the case for more (in the $6 to $7 M range over the longer term) and keith can point to campbell AND the fact he's been vastly underpaid for the last 2 years at least (while guys like sopel & sharp got extensions) to justify a similar long term deal
so in effect, the hawks may have "traded" Sharp, Byfuglien AND Versteeg for a 30 something Hossa...
once fans figure that out, Hossa will be under a lot of (perhaps unbearable) pressure to produce (and we've seen how he responded under pressure in the finals with detroit last year)...& of course team cohesion will be so much better with the team after they lose a large part of their young core... (all for a 30 something overpaid euro who will be expected to deliver but won't be able to, other than perhaps at a personal level)
Even Detroit will see a fall off in ticket sales and corporate dollars. Even my diehard Wings fan friends are finally admitting, the dynasty is over. Totally agree.
But I don't think the cap is going down. I think it's going to go up modestly. Lack of corporate dollars in weak markets like Nashville, Phoenix and Columbus is nothing new.
But the bad economy, overall, has not had the predicted devastating effect on the league overall. Hockey is thriving in the big markets, (NY, Chi, L.A.) and the secondary markets (Boston, Philly, Toronto) probably more so than at any time in the last 15 years or more.
The Big Three can make any case they want for more dollars, but the market will dictate what they get. They are RFAs. Lots of teams have cap problems. Does Duncan Keith want to waste his career in Atlanta?And to your point, if the cap actually goes down, the market for THEM goes down too. It's not like it only affects the Hawks front office.
The Hawks will have to shed some salary to make this work, but not that much. Dustin Byfuglien's not going anywhere. Nor do I think Patrick Sharp is.
Huet, Barker, Skille, Sopel, Eager and (only maybe) Versteeg. Yes. All very replaceable.
Just had a news conference earlier where he stated that OVERALL season ticket renewals was slightly ahead of last year, or on par. So that means the revenues should stay the same...so I don't see how this cap goes down. There will always be weak markets like a Phoenix, etc. However, with the success of the original 6 teams, you can't tell me that they won't make up for huge revenues.
Plus, I think I read somewhere that ESPN is trying to get the NHL back in a few years once the Versus deal ends. This isn't the 1999 league with Dallas, and New Jersey clutching their way to dull 2-1 wins. You have huge, young stars, with exciting high tempo teams.....
(and his job is to put a positive spin on everything, which means anything he says should be viewed skeptically)
teams will then be in less of a position to sign RFAs to offer sheets???
Islanders have Tavares & likely rising attendance as a result of him & $14M in current cap room - & their owner has been known to be a wild spender at times....he isn't going to take a run at a guy like keith because....because...just because duncan wants to stay in chicago because he loves bryan campbell & us fans so much!!!! yea thats it!!!
if the cap goes down, it hurts the hawks more relatively, because they have already committed so much money long term which to my knowledge doesn't get reduced - there will simply be less cap room left for those unsigned including the big 3! not to mention the greater uncertainty regarding what long term deals should be priced at...
the one ray of hope might be contraction of several franchises (& there are several that are in deep financial trouble) - but that would hurt overall league revenues & may blow the existing CBA out of the water...
What teams actually have all their picks necessary to make a push via offer sheet for a Toews, Kane, and Keith? Who? What team does that, and hurts them long term with having to lose 2 years of top picks for 1 guy? Come on......Not many teams do it, and since Edmonton made that run at Vanek, who else has even sniffed this?
It could happen, but it's not likely. I'm not being naive...........
...does Bettman start investigating the Hawks again for circumventing the salary cap? After all the Hawks are really only sending Skille to Rockford on paper, it seems to me that this tactic is at least as questionable as Hossa's long term contract.
On the days Skille is sent down, he can't practice with the hawks, (but can with the Icehogs), so it is more than just being sent down on paper.
now if skille is actually partaking in hawks practice while technically being in Rockford, then presumably you'd have a case for possible sanctions...
I really can't understand the basis for the NHL "investigating" the hawks for signing Hossa. it is almost as dumb as the contract itself.
I mean who have the hawks hurt besides themselves with that albatross of a contract??? It is one of the stupidest things done under the cap era & probably qualifies as one of the dumbest outside of the cap era as well. no team in their right mind is going to repeat that & put in jeopardy the re-signing of a promising young core.
the hawks certainly don't appear to be missing Hossa & his $5.25M cap hit so far do they? but just imagine if they can't resign one of toews, kane, or keith or they have to trade sharp or versteeg or byfuglien (or all 3) for little or nothing back, simply because they can't afford to keep these guys with the cap room they have left???
When Hossa's back. I'm pretty excited to see us with him in the lineup. We are playing pretty well -- and he actually adds defense, too. I'm still giddy about his signing. Given what's transpired since '95 . . .
And 12 shots the other night? Those are pre obstruction-enforcement numbers. I just hope there's not an '99/'00 Blues fan laughing at us right now.
1. The Bona Fide Long Term Injury/Illness Exception - A team with a player on longterm IR (10 games/24 days min) may exceed the cap by up to the injured players salary for replacements, but once the injured player returns the team must get back below the cap again before activating the player.
2. The Performance Bonus Cushion - A team may exceed the Upper Limit by up to 7.5% due to performance bonuses. All performance bonuses, earned or not, count against the cap. If a bonus becomes impossible to achieve, then the team gets a cap credit back for the remainder of that season. At the end of the year, if the actual bonuses earned cause the team to exceed the Upper Limit, that excess is applied against the following seasons cap.
I think they are trying to reduce the cap hit to lower the amount that they will eat into the bonus cushion. The last thing they need is to have an extra 4 million cap hit for next season because they exceeded the upper limit. Then, we'll see just how hard it is to resign players if the cap drops and they have to deal with excess from this season.
Players on long term IR do count on the cap, but the cap is temp increased by their pro-rated salary while on IR.
Waiver rules are determiend by how many games played and how many years experience so Skille can be placed on waivers all year long without "running out"
Is there a limit to the amount of times he can be sent down and at what point do the Hawks run out of options on him before he'd have to clear waviers?
I think the Hawks are still under the cap but as soon as Hossa comes off they will have to make a move.
Are we really that hard up that we have to resort to these games to save $6600 a day against the cap? Now, i'm always one in favor of running a tight ship....but C'mon.
And is it myth or fact that Bowman's really the one who is responsible for authorizing the ultra stupid contracts to Huet and Campbell? Can one of the resident Hawk-ologists clarify all of the please. If so...why is he our GM now?
but my sense is that any objections he might have had re: signing Campbell & Huet were overruled by Tallon/McDonough who both had their own reasons for signing these two high profile free agents.
Tallon was much more concerned about the short term (i.e. making sure the hawks made the playoffs so he'd improve his chances of keeping his job) than worrying about long term & possible cap implications, since if they didn't make the playoffs, he wouldn't be around longer (or short) term.
McDonough was looking to make a splash at the first ever hawk fan convention & also to help drive season ticket sales so he had no objections (and scotty sr. wasn't around yet to advise him otherwise or overrule Tallon).
I suspect Tallon sensed McDonough's eagerness to make a splash, & Tallon likely figured signing both would kill two birds with 1 stone - he'd give his boss the material to market the team (help sell tv advertising for the home games, etc) and help make the playoffs making his boss doubly happy while saving/securing his own job.
all just my speculation, but looking at Tallon's record of overly generous contract negotations from his very first signings as GM (Khabi, Aucoin, Lapointe, Lang, throw in Havlat as well, Sopel, Barker, etc.), I think it is not only conceivable that he was the driving force of signing Huet & Campbell (& Hossa) but that is the most reasonable conclusion to draw, Hossa's signing being the last straw, after which the Bowmans got McDonough's ear & the "plan" to "dump" Tallon as GM was finalized.
Aren't we under the cap while Hossa is on the IR?
No, IR salaries also count against the cap. The only salaries that don't are guys in the minors or juniors. The Skille situation exists because the cap is calculated on a daily basis. He's exempt from waivers until next summer.