Retire Roenick's 27? Sorry, can't do it
Let me state, for the record, that Jeremy Roenick was one of my all-time favorite Blackhawks, right there behind Bobby Hull and Denis Savard.
But when it comes to retiring Roenick’s No. 27, I can’t jump on that bandwagon.
He just didn’t play here long enough, or win a Stanley Cup.
How can you retire Roenick’s number, or even Chris Chelios’ No. 7, if you don’t hang Steve Larmer’s No. 28 or Doug Wilson’s No. 24 up there as well?
Larmer and Wilson never won a Cup here either, but they had longevity and were special, special players.
There’s no way Roenick or Chelios get their numbers retired ahead of Larmer, who ranks third all-time in goals with 406 as a Hawk, behind only Hull and Stan Mikita.
Larmer’s 923 points rank fourth behind Mikita, Hull and Savard.
And what about the old-timers, who are forgotten altogether?
Bill Mosienko scored 258 goals back when 20 goals in a season was like 45 today and is in the Hall of Fame.
Earl Seibert is a Hall of Fame defenseman, but his No. 17 is not hanging in the rafters.
Harold “Mush” March and Johnny Gottselig each won two Stanley Cups and were big goal scorers in their day. That’s two of the three Cups the Hawks have won.
Ever.
Maybe the Hawks need to do something like the Maple Leafs and recognize those great players in the arena in some special way short of retiring their numbers.
Let’s remember there were great Hawks before Hull, Mikita, Savard, Tony Esposito, Glenn Hall, Pierre Pilote and Keith Magnuson.
I agree with Tim.Doug Wilson should be the next,but as long as he's the Sharks GM,they
won't do it.Larmer next a great finisher.I don't understand since the Hawks revival,what's
with all these retire the number mania.We should back in history and look at guys like
Mosienko.Plus JR was a good player,but after watching Savard from his 1st game in 1980
no way is JR in Savvy's class.Having watched Hull,Mikita,and Savard at the old barn,I
used to think Hull was the greatest Hawk ever,but my #1 is Savvy.He made Secord a
50 goal scorer.Nobody that ever played for the Hawks had the speed and moves that
Savard did.A far as Chelios goes,Wilson gets the nod before before him.Wilson had that
cannon shot from the pt,was the QB of the PP,was underrated defensively,plus the guy
was a class act.Lets give the jersey retirement act a rest for a few months.But then
IMHO Doug Wilson and Steve Larmer should be next.
I believe Jeremy Roenick was one of the best players in the history of the Blackhawks. We should definitely retire his jersey.
I don't know about you, but my vote is for Boris Mironov. There have some some real losers to wear the Blackhawk sweater, but I think Boris is the epitome of the worst. His sweater should hang as a reminder of the garbage they had playing defense. My gosh, the guy couldn't even muster the strength to play through a hang nail.
Lord-god-king of defensemen.
I heard one time he had to bum $20 bucks off a beat reporter to catch a cab home from the airport because he drank his face off on the plane. Don't know if it's true...but i wouldn't doubt it. He wore 2....but he should have worn ZERO because that's all he ever contributed to our beloved club.
Tim
The best part of your blog is with reference to the old timers.
"And what about the old-timers, who are forgotten altogether?
Bill Mosienko scored 258 goals back when 20 goals in a season was like 45 today and is in the Hall of Fame.
Earl Seibert is a Hall of Fame defenseman, but his No. 17 is not hanging in the rafters.
Harold “Mush” March and Johnny Gottselig each won two Stanley Cups and were big goal scorers in their day. That’s two of the three Cups the Hawks have won.
Ever."
I can comment on the players being discussed(Larmer, Roenick, Wilson et all.) because I've watched them all growing up as a HAWKS fan. However, if down the road you take these players and look at them as old timers like the players mentioned above - do they stand out as jersey retirement recipients ? HULL, MIKITA, SAVARD, ESPOSITO, HALL & PILOTE are all no brainers. (my apologies to the Magnuson family, but if only he was still with us then his name would not be in the rafters)
To me, if you must have a debate on a jersey retirement - then the question has answered itself. NO.
Earl SEIBERT HOF inducted 1963, played for the BLACKHAWKS from 1936-1994.
He was a 10 time NHL all-star defenceman. 4 times on the first team. (once with Rangers). WON a Stanley Cup with the HAWKS in 1938.
This is one example of an old timer whom I never had the pleasure to see play, but when you read about his accomplishments they dwarf that of any of the players being discussed.
I vote retire #17 ! Earl SEIBERT
If you don't think JR deserves it, fine. But in a place like Chicago # of championships won here shouldn't be a huge factor in retiring a jersey. If that were the case then the Cubs, Sox and Hawks wouldn't have that many numbers retired. as it stands I think the CUbs with 6 is too low of a number. it doesn't help the lovable loser image when you've only got 6 numbers, and up until last year it was only 4
he was their best player in the past 25 years. The hawks havent won a cup in most likely all of our lifetimes. Roenick is popular in chicago and one of few recognizable hockey players. Let's not get a false sense of entitlement here. Retire his number.
There are more than a few HOF'ers who do not have their number retired by the Hawks.
Why? Because they didn't play when the Wirtz family owned them so they don't exist.
Loved him as a Hawk, but don't see retiring #27 being right. That only opens up more "what about this player" debates. Every generation had their favorite player who in their mind deserves to have their number retired.
I do agree with JR's comments in the Tribune...if you ask any fan who wore number 27 for the Hawks the answer is JR. Same with 28 (Mark Bell obviously). Chelios disrespected this organization so his number will never be retired. I know JR embellished this franchise & truly loved the city of Chicago. Throughout his playing days he always brought up how much he loved playing as a Hawk...and especially in the Stadium. Does that deserve his number to be retired? Well, the fans loved him. LOVED him. Do they want to see another Hawk wear 27? My answer is no. I respectfully disagree with this blog. I think he played for the Hawks the way all players should. He hit, scored and made time for the fans. When you look in the rafters and see JR's name up there, it shows what type of character this organization should expect out of their players. And considering he will go into the Hall of Fame as a Hawk, it would be nice to pay him the same respect.
Side note, I hope Toews starts his scoring-in-bunches streak that he is known for on this trip. I seriously hate the Flames. I hope to God we start off strong and shove it up their ...
And how obnoxious were Toronto's fans?
.... and put Darryl Sutter's name up there.
put his real name on the sweater.......TRAITOR !
and put Rick Vaive's name on it.
Go to any arena in the league where the Hawks are playing and you will find obnoxious Chicago fans.
Ditto with Wings fans. Ranger fans. Flyers fans. Blues fans, etc.
There are few exceptions. (Columbus fans. Kings fans. Nashville fans.)
By and large, fan behavior is becoming a microcosm of the obnoxious, arrogant, me first, because it feels good, no responsibility, society we are becoming.
Every time I think of Hawks #28, I always think of Mark Bell. (Mark Bell?)
NOT!
Becoming?
You're describing America as it has always been, Cheese. The phrase "Ugly American" wasn't born at Nagano. Progressive immorality is an unfounded talking point; seriously, the historical record doesn't bear it out.
Any fan of any team can be obnoxious and rude, but I don't think it's reasonable to state that all fans of all teams are equally obnoxious and rude. Fans in non-traditional markets get a temporary pass on hockey etiquette, but I'm surprised when I'm catching a game in Philly, Boston, or Detroit, and tools get up in the middle of play and walk up and down the aisles.
Wait for a whistle, fellas. They should know better.
In my travels, the most obnoxious fans (who should know better) are Ranger and Red Wing fans.
Talk about entitlement issues...yeesh.
I did not state that all fans of all teams are obnoxious and rude.
Just that fan behavoir is a microcosm of society.
First off Swisscheese39, Where are you from?................Obnoxious in what way? I have been to Boston, Philly, New Jersey, Both New York's, St. Louis, Detroit, and San Jose stadiums..I did not encounter any Obnoxious Chicago fans..Your gonna cheer for your team, and your gonna get some serious ribbing from the home crowd. But by and large everyone has always been friendly with me and who ever I am with. I almost got into a fight in Boston, bruins fans did not know I was sitting with 4 brother-in-laws with their bruins attire on..When we all turned around to see if they were serious, they clammed up real fast...lol.....Had a gun pulled out on us in St. Louis in early 90's, outside after the game, but were to drunk to give it serious thought. The guy was in his car and his wife was screaming at him to put the gun away...We said sorry we beat ya 4-2.. and laughed all the way to the bar.... Just being in your Hawks jersey in enemy arena's is always an exciting time, especially when you win.....Let's Go Hawks
I am from Chicago.
Your reponse about guns, fights, being drunk, and brother-in-laws proves my point about obnoxious fans and society's decline..............Think about what you typed and how it directly proves my point.
Really.............think aobut it.
Not saying you are part of the decline. No way. No how.
Just re-read what you typed, then go and read my post again about the obnoxious fans and the microcosm of society.
I really thought about it, I did, I did...and your getting a little carried away...Fans are just that Fans, maybe thats short for Fanatical, in your eyes... But people in general are pretty civil....And to just say that for certain cities!! No obnoxious fans in Nashville, LA or Columbus....Can't we all just get along....ha ha ha... I like the fact you threw in brother-in-laws into proving your point, those dam brother-in-laws...THEIR TROUBLE! LOL
As I travel around, I notice the respect that was pretty much a formality 10-15 years ago is slowly disappearing.
Cases in point as they pertain to the NHL?
1. All these hits from behind.
That is a total lack of respect; and the NHL's lack of severe punishment of it merley proves the general decline in respect in today's society.
2. Did you watch Sean Avery last night vs. Washington? He punched the goalie in the head as he was going by the crease and got away with it. (Again. Total lack of respect.)
Regarding fans:
Fan behavior is really getting out of control in the USA. We are slowly becoming English League Soccer fans.
Cases in point?
1. Drunk obnoxious behavior.
2. Gun waving as sports events.
3. Fights over a game.............. A GAME!
4. Loud cussing around ladies at sports events.
5. Continued loud cussing at sports events around ladies after being asked to stop.
Now Moots, you cannot tell me you have not witnessed this because you have stated you have been involved in this.
Am I getting carried away?
Maybe.
But am I wrong?
What do you think?
I forgot sarcasm on this blog is hard to accomplish...I was referring to Larmer bud.
for dispelling the RIDICULOUS notion that Steve Larmer 'quit' on the Hawks. Did he quit when he played in 884 STRAIGHT games for the Tomahawk? No Sir.
Not only should Gramps have his number 28 retired by Chicago...he should eventually be inducted in the Hockey Hall of Fame. Maybe thee most underrated two way hockey player of his era. Averaged a point a game during his illustrious career, was ultra responsible in his own end, and was superb in the clutch to boot.
Love Ya Always Gramps.
I agree that Larms belongs in the Hall as well. Until that happens, it sure would be great to see his #28 hanging with Tony, Stan, Bobby, Denis, Keith and Pierre.
be great to see Larmer up with the other Hawk greats.....where he rightfully belongs. I'd love to hear where Savvy stands re: Larmer since they were great linemates as were Gramps and J.R. .
One last thing....and i'll be clean about this....FORGET Darryl Sutter...the backstabbling, mumbling waste of space. He was a good Hawk and a good captain but when he decided to unilaterally railroad Larmer out of town for no logical reason...he lost all respect in my eyes. What an -hole.
For me they have to be ....
1. A Blackhawk for at least 10 years or more.
2. A true superstar in the league for all that time.
Roenick doesn't fit #1 above so he doesn't deserve his number retired.
And to be honest, even Dollar Bill had kept him, I thought he wasn't the same player once he got to Phoenix.
I agree with MikeF on the ridiculous football numbers.
And to me, #27 will always be Ty Jones, wherever he is.
I say forge a relationship where JR and all the rest are in the building numerous times and in the corridors for part of the time.
Let them continue to know how we valued their play in the past.
Management has to work hard to get Mr. Goalie Glenn Hall, Bobby's centre Red Hay, and all players from the heyday here to strengthen the family.
No more raised banners, or Rocky back pats ... until we win something.
I loved to watch JR play, but he had a lot to do with punching his own ticket out of town. His agent had given him notions that he was a 5+ million player at the time when the hawks had offered to tear up his contract 1 1/2 years earlier and pay him 3.5 million a year. So he plays out the 1 1/2 years at 1.5 and the hawks finally have enough whining and trade him. And what did he sign for in Phoenix? Believe it or not, 3.5 a year. The hawks were right on the mark, and they will never get credit for it. As far as Wilson & Savard-that was all Keenan, not money. And for Larmer- it was Darryl Sutter, not money. Belfour, one of the most selfish teammates ever, had as much to do with attitude as money. Chelios, he wanted out because he couldn't stand to lose. So the guy who would "never play for the wings" did just that. The hawks were never in the bottom third of payroll, and most of the time they were in the top 1/2. The hawks are not as cheap as people think.
Roenick was forced out by Bill Wirtz. Big difference.
Larmer left because of Darryl Sutter, not because he didn't love the Indian Head. I was friends with several guys on the team at that point, and had their insight into Sutter's treatment of Gramps.
Larmer's 28 should be in the rafters.
Wasn't Larmer pushed out by Darryl Sutter? In the interest of "putting the best team on the ice"? I think he told Larmer to stay home, broke his consecutive games streak and a deal was consummated about a month into the season with the Rangers. That was the deal that brought the Hawks Weinrich and Poulin. (cringe)
that Grandpa wanted out, and many might have felt that he was pushed out the door by Sutter.
There was absolutely nothing wrong with what Larmer accomplished as a winger with Savvy and Secord.
I would like to remember that and not the fact he had to go to NYC to actually win a Cup, in a time when money was no object there but THE MAJOR consideration here/
Can we just leave it there and all the great Larmer play in our good memories?
Sorry Wiz, but money had nothing to do with Larmer wanting out. Darryl Sutter thought he was going to be the next Keenan and started acting like it by making an example of Larmer like Keenan did with Savard. Larmer had an ulcer from the Keenan days and wanted none of it. The most ironic thing I have ever seen was Larmer going to NY to win the cup--with Keenan coaching of all people, who for some strange reason had a lot more respect for Larmer.
My memory is a little hazy on that whole situation with Sutter and Larmer but back then the only thing that pretty much mattered was that you stayed if you were willing to work for what Dollar Bill decided you were worth and you got booted if you dared question his decision. If he decided to issue you an exit visa he then had Pulford throw some sleaze at you through the media to hopefully grease the skids for your journey out of town.
After a while the sleaze started to get on his and Pulford's expensive suits and it never came off. Larmer was the first big Hawk name to win his Cup elsewhere but sadly he wasn't the last. Unfortunately Wirtz and Pulford didn't care and ran the franchise into the ground to prove their point....whatever that was.
Were Roenick to have played here for his entire career like he wanted to he'd be a lock for his number to be retired, just as Belfour and Chelios would have. Unfortunately Dollar Bill scuttled the team and traded them all away and instead we only got to see each of them play here for 7-8 years which, even though it isn't their fault, makes it impossible for the new regime to retire their numbers. When they all enter the HOF the team might revisit this but even then their short stay here probably rules it out. But at minimum these three guys belong in a Blackhawk HOF which would be nice to see at the UC. The Packers have a pretty cool one at Lambeau Field that they could use as a guide.
In the meantime flip a coin between Larmer's or Wilson's number being the next one retired. Larmer was always a sneaky good and very underrated player that did nearly everything well and was obviously one of the most durable players ever. But I have a fondness for Doug Wilson. He was also underrated around the league in many ways, but not offensively as anyone with working eyeballs when he played could see that he was scary good in that regard. His slapshot was the most intimidating shot that I have ever seen from a defenseman (no disrespect to Al MacInnis intended). And even though Mike Keenan might disagree, I always thought Wilson was a class act and great leader who carried this team on his shoulders many nights when he played.
The Chicago Tribune is reporting today that the Hawks are on the verge of signing all three to contract extensions in the next few days. Great news but I'm trying to figure out how. If Bowman can work this out without gutting the team he must be a cap genius.
... just knows how to do his job.
I'm probably in the minority here but the ONLY number I'd retire would be Larmer's 28. On the other hand, to me it's ridiculous to see teams like Boston and Montreal who have retired so many numbers that the current squads have to wear football numbers.
I like the idea of, for example, what the Washington Redskins have with their "Ring of Honor," recognizing guys' accomplishments and contributions without permanently deactivating the numbers they wore.
I also like the idea of honoring the achievements of those who played on the Hawks before Hull, Mikita, etc.. I would argue that if you're going to go on a number-retiring binge, guys like Mosienko and Doug Bentley deserve it just as much as Roenick would. But there's no way it'll ever happen. 98% of your average sports fans neither know nor care at all for things that happened so long ago, and there's no incentive for ownership to educate them.
The only new number to be retired for the Hawks is Larmer's 28.
JR was a good Hawk, but simply not enough years. Darryl Sutter wore number 27, too (I think), and I like to see that number on a Hawk back. I want it available. Number 3 is available, and number 4, the numbers worn by Pierre Pilote and Moose Vasko, so I don't think Jeremy's number should be taken out of circulation.
Um... there was a ceremony just last year honoring Magnuson and Pilote and retiring their number 3. 3 is not available. Roenick is my fav player but should not have his number retired.
Sorry, ChuckH, but I have lived in San Francisco Bay Area since 1991 and have never been to the United Center, so I didn't know about Pilote and Maggie. And as for all the other remarks about Larmer, yeah put number 28 up there. He was my favorite Hawk during the Savard years, great along the boards, smart, the best one-timer I ever saw, and the best at receiving passes. Defensemen used to clear the Hawk zone with wrist shots at Larmer at center ice, and the puck would just stop dead on his stick.
Doug and Max never won cups but in the 40s (until Max was traded) were 2 of the best players in the league for a decade. I dont know if you mentioned Pierre Pilote or Paul Thompson from the 30s......long story short , I believe only the exceptional should have their jerseys retired!!!
...but Tim's claim makes too much sense.
I read Sassone's point to mean there are other former Hawks more deserving, which is not the same thing as ruling out Roenick as a candidate for number retirement in the future.
Look, JR is my favorite Hawk and probably always will be. It's corny, but even now, as a grown man playing in a bar league, I draw eyes on the blade of my stick. Roenick nuts like me know why.
As far as I'm concerned, Roenick was the "Bobby" of my generation and not only represented the way the game should be played, but also in my mind became the epitome of Blackhawk hockey.
He was a special player--so special to many Hawk fans, as much for what he did off the ice as well as on it, I think it serves a greater selection criteria than crude numbers and Cups--and he does deserve to have his number retired.
However, I reluctantly second Tim's assertion that there is no way the Hawks should retire #27 before they first award the honor to #28.
No worries: I have a feeling that this long overdo recognition is likely in the works. If for no other reason, Hawk PR will soon run out of marginal Hawks to let drop the ceremonial first puck at home games--have they already had a "Panger" night?
JR committed to the Indian until the Indian sold him for beads and trinkets. His betrayal ranks up there with the atrocious contract bumblings of a guy or two whose name(s) already hang from the rafters. The loss of Roenick, debatably as much as the loss of any Hawk in team history, resonated among the faithful in Hawk nation, especially those who do, in fact, remember the roar.
But there's no hurry. In the spirit of righting wrongs and healing scars, Roenick will get his day but not before "Grandpa" gets his.